Post Season 6 Discussion

MALEVOLENT S6 Q&A
Transcript by Fae

REN: Hello. Your friendly neighborhood Ren here. This post-season 6 Interview contains spoilers for all of Season 6 and Part 1 of Threshold. Not a ton of spoilers, but if you want a totally spoiler free experience, listen to Threshold Part 1 first. Then come back to join Harlan and myself as we dig into all the themes and secrets of Malevolent. Enjoy. 

Okay, so the warm-up question, just to get us thinking about Malevolent is, and something that I wanted to tell you personally, and that I started writing, but then I was like, this is not gonna make the cut, is that Malevolent wasn't written in a vacuum. You started airing it during July 2020, during lockdown. Canada had two federal elections in 2021 and 2025. You wrote and released Part 19 and Part 20 during the Canada Convoy protest in 2022. Season 5's The Purpose was released during February 2025 when life for Americans was melting down. And you probably don't remember this, but I was having a really really hard time in February 2025 and I was like, "Am I gonna have to quit my job? Is my CEO gonna bend the knee to Trump?" You were seeing me express some of that, and you very kindly released 255 early and said, "Ren, you have to go listen to this right now." And it is still the only time I've cried listening to Malevolent. 

HARLAN: Oh, Ren.

REN: And I still get choked up thinking about how kind that was. And also the message of that chapter. So thank you, first of all, for your big heart. It means a lot to a lot of people, especially me. And second, how have you felt the world's events influencing your writing?

HARLAN: Well, first off, thank you. I appreciate you sharing that. I know that wasn't easy. And I appreciate it because it may be nice for me, here and there, to get messages from random people being like, "Oh, this mattered to me," but it always means so much when friends are like, "Hey, that one rung true." So I really appreciate you saying that. Thank you.

And I’m not surprised, while equally surprised, that landmark parts of the show have coincided with things that have happened in the real world. Yeah. I absolutely, unknowingly, probably, have the outside world affect the writing, and I think I wouldn't be surprised if Season 3's darkness maybe didn't coincide with a real world event, but possibly my own personal timeline of a dark period. I love the immediacy of the show and I think there's something so unique about it. And I think one of the huge benefits of that is getting to respond in real time in a sort of emotional way that may not be specifically saying, "Here's what's going on in the world and here's what you need to see," but allow me to promote the emotion that I wish more people would have in that moment in time.

So I love to hear that that coincided accidentally but obviously now, while you point that out I'm like, "Yeah, it makes perfect sense," because yeah, there's a lot of feeling I put into the writing. And sometimes that makes it swingy, which is frustrating cause it goes week by week. But I think more often, it hits when it's intended to hit. And I'm so glad to hear that it hit you when it needed to.

REN: It really did. That leads into another question that I have, but I don't know, I guess that we can keep that in.

HARLAN: We can keep it. I'm fine with it. It's up to you.

REN: And we'll do the intro in a minute.

HARLAN: Yeah.

REN: Okay. John... In this season, you mentioned the week-by-week emotions, and this season had so many intense emotions, especially in the Dark World, where John says, it brings all negative emotions to that zenith and keeps them there. What experiences or influences did you pull from during this season to get into that mindset, especially for John, those negative emotions?

HARLAN: I mean, yeah. My own, and friends. I think my intention with the Dark World was more-or-less meant to be depression. When you cannot see the world beyond the next few minutes. Where you're just like, "Nothing matters. None of this matters." And to a degree, the way I get when I feel that way, which is, "Well, nothing can make anything worse, so I can be the worst version of myself. I can be this horrible grouchy unkind little thing because there's no going deeper. I'm feeling as deep as possible."

Of course that's not always true, because you could always make others feel worse. But there are moments in this season that I think succeed at that, and there are moments that I myself felt better writing, that I needed to pull back a little bit. 

But I am a human, like anybody else. I have my dark days and there are moments when I disassociate or disconnect in a way that makes it really easy to become bitter and resentful at the world, at the state of things. And for some reason, I think it's akin to listening to sad music when you're sad. When I'm feeling that way, sometimes it makes me feel... I wouldn't say better, but it makes me feel, I don't know, maybe I relish in it by being even more negative, by being even darker. And that creates a downward spiral that I think some people have experienced. Probably many people. 

And I wanted that manifesting in a world so that I could, for myself, show that even in those darkest moments, sometimes, no matter how hard we try, we need something else to guide us. In this case, the lighter. It's the lighter that Arthur and John to bring themselves out of that. It was not within Arthur. No matter how many Invictus poems to say, "I am the master of my fate, I will pull myself out of this darkness," it wasn't. He needed something else. 

And whether that for some people be therapy, or a loved one, or maybe a magical object, you can't always just pull yourself up by your bootstraps, because as much as a theme in Malevolent and a theme in my personal life and writings, I also want to acknowledge that that's not always a healthy mentality for every single person. Some people need a McGuffin to say, "Okay, this is the reason that I can feel better." So that it's not all on their shoulders. 

But yeah. It was a real real place that I drew from to build the Dark World, and a place that I think, over time, is gonna become clearer and crystallized and sort of obfuscated a little bit. Because some people relish in that world. (laughs)

REN: Yes. The Dark World was such a huge introduction this season. The descriptions of it particularly were so vivid and horrifying in the best way. I know you said Dark Souls and Bloodborne and Elden Ring were inspirations for it. What else went into that worldbuilding for you? And when you would build, what are your first steps? It is the more metaphorical writerly stuff, or is it, "Man, I want something really cool, like in Elden Ring?

HARLAN: (laughs) Probably the latter. I mean, to me, I knew the Dark World was a reflection of the real world. But the way that depression can skew the way you view things. This forest is less beautiful. Everything is dark and dreary and husk-like. 

And I think that's why all of the buildings in the Dark World, they're not functional. They are representative, and because, similar to the way depression can do that, it's like the masks we were. Especially when you're feeling depressed at times, but you can't, or you're not allowed to, you put on this mask like, "Oh yeah, everything's great," and then behind it you are this husk, and all of the buildings in the Dark World, except the Dollmaker's house, which obviously they made themselves, is meant to be representative of that mask. It's the world's mask, in a way, which I really really liked. 

But now I think I would dream, and just be like, "Man, I want to see a battlefield, or a field of thorny vines." And sometimes working backwards on them I realize, oh, they came from fairy tales. Or they came from a scene in a movie that I really really liked. But to me, since the Dark World was meant to be representative of the horrible parts of the lives that we live reflected back on us, it made sense that I drew them from places that I dreamt, or places that I wanted to visit in my dreams. Because I think those were more apt to what the Dark World is meant to be anyway. But yeah. 

And some of the stuff I just thought was kind of cool. I honestly can't remember how I came up with Yorick, the visual for Yorick. I think I just wanted to get wild and was just like, "I want this giant crustacean upside down to look like a city." Because I think I've always respected those Elden Ring, Bloodborne, for how wild they get. And it's easy to be like, well, here's a wild thing, let's try that!

REN: (laughs) Thinking more about the metaphor of the Dark World now, it makes so much sense why John alone wasn't strong enough. But John with Arthur and Arthur with John, that is part of the externality of when you have a friend to check in and be like, "Have you showered today? Have you gotten out of bed today?" That external, versus John alone. It's incredible that he was able to snap out of it and pull himself out at all.

HARLAN: And I think that's a real important point. 'Cause that to me is, when John leaves at the end of Season 2, and then comes back in Season 3, he's so positive and he's so, "No, Arthur, we can pull you out of this." And it's because he's had this road of horrible horrible giving in to the most negative, deeply negative thoughts.

But he managed to find a way to... well, something broke the camel's back, obviously, but he snapped out of it to the point where he really wanted life after that. And I think it shows a really important character growth moment for John. It's unfortunate that it doesn't come until Season 6 despite it being in Season 3. But I think it works out really well in the grand scheme of things.

REN: Yes. What was interesting about that straw that broke the camel's back moment was that in the flashback, Kayne didn't seem surprised that John finally snapped out of it. 

HARLAN: Yeah. I think, to a degree, Kayne is such an observer of human nature. A scientist, in a way. A horrific scientist throwing more drugs-soaked cotton balls to see what happens when the mice die. And I think because he's so above it all, in terms of being detached, it's like, he wants John to kill Arthur, and he wants... but he also doesn't really care. He cares about one thing in the entirety of the show, and we see it in the final episode, which is, he cares about this goal. And when he can't, that's the only time we really see him genuinely upset. 

REN: He crashes out. It's my favorite. I think 299 is my favorite chapter in the whole series now because you play the crashout so perfectly. But we'll get to that. 

Hi everyone. (laughs)

HARLAN: Hi!

REN: Hi, Harlan!

HARLAN: Hi.

REN: This is the post-Season 6 and post-Malevolent Blackstone interview, which is a pretty awesome thing to say.

HARLAN: It's crazy.

REN: I'm Ren. If you've never listened to an interview, I'm a fan and friend and author, and I love interviewing smart, clever, wise people. So of course I bully Harlan into letting me interview him.

HARLAN: Who, me?

REN: (laughs) "Who, me?"

HARLAN: Not at all! I sought you out for this one. I was like, let's do it! I want to do it!

REN: And Harlan, who are you?

HARLAN: My name is Harlan Guthrie. I write, record, edit, do some of the music, most of the big music themes. I do everything for Malevolent Blackstone, which is the subtitle for Series 1, which if you're listening to this, you should have just finished, more or less, with Part 60, The Final Act. 

REN: Wow. Wow wow wow. Okay, let's just keep going. Let's dive right back in.

HARLAN: Let's do it. I'm in.

REN: Frederick has a line in Part 53. Frederick, what a great character to introduce, to make Marie's....

HARLAN: Yes. Marie's son.

REN: Yes. He had a line that stood out to me as one of the themes of the season, if not the whole series, and he says, "You can't leave hell, boy." And Arthur and John have been carrying around these personal hells that they've been struggling to leave the whole series. At the end of the Blackstone series… of course if you have depression, you're never gonna not have depression, but you could not be in active Dark World level. 

HARLAN: Well, and especially with Arthur, who's carrying his guilt as punishment. To a degree, John is carrying it as well.

REN: John starts to really reflect that in Season 6 for sure. With the King in Yellow.

HARLAN: Yep. And the funeral thing, the wake. The living wake.

REN: Oh yes. The living wake. But my question is, at the end of the Blackstone series, have john and Arthur finally left hell?

HARLAN: Ooh... yes, they have. And I think because that was more or less the reason of Series 1. 

Arthur is introduced as a character with many different story beats and all that stuff, but one of the prevailing themes is his daughter, and at the end of Series 1, he is given the opportunity to be in her life again and to have her in his life again. And he realizes that his path that he took, for all hsi trials and tribulations, has led him here, and that this is now the future, this is now the life that he wants, so long as, obviously, Faroe is happy and healthy where she should be. And that is the thesis of him letting go. And that speaks to the choice of letting go, which comes up multiple times. It's not just a matter of choosing her when it suits him, it's a matter of recognizing that so long as she's happy, he is not necessary for her growth and her life in that.

And it's not an easy decision. Even writing it, I was like, "Man, I don't know if I could do that." I think that speaks to the point of Arthur's journey, at least where he is now.

And John too. John, I think his resolution comes a little bit sooner in Season 6, where he recognizes that he is two pieces of himself in The Living Wake, and that he may die incomplete, that the struggle for humanity is not one that's meant to reach 100%. It is the constant choice and the constant decision to be bettering ourselves, to be growing. Humanity is the struggle. That is what humanity is. There is no absolute form of it. And that him accepting the powers that he has as the king and the choices he makes as a human is what defines him, rather than just being one or the other.

REN: When we see John recombined with Yellow as the King in Yellow, John happens to be shame torturing himself. But were there positives about that too, being recombined, for John? Or was it mostly negative?

HARLAN: For John, some, yes. And I think for Yellow, it was more important in a way. Because John was so drenched in humanity that to a degree, you can overdo it. I think the point of the King in Yellow episode, titled The King in Yellow, was to show that extremism on either point is unhealthy. 

John going so far into humanity, to the point where, yeah, listen, you and I can both attest to the crippling horrors of the real world. And you can be stuck with indecision over giving your money away to charity, or wanting to donate all of your time to this, while also trying to balance, "Okay but I need to eat," and all this kind of stuff. And life is full of these impossible decisions every day, and there is no perfect right answer. We all just try to do our best. If you are not selfish sometimes, you will starve. Or if you are not compassionate, you become a terrible person. You need to walk that line. 

And when John, at the end of 55, when Arthur dies to John's eyes, and John is then put back into the King, he was left with a great deal of guilt and shame at this gift that Arthur gave, and took it to its zenith, took it to this point of, "Well, this was my lesson, obviously, and I didn't do good enough for it. I need to punish myself." Combined with, now that he has another voice that has become one, which is also, "No, we're the king, this doesn't matter to us, blah blah blah," and both even themselves out.

But I do think that lesson, hard as it was for John to recognize that there is power in acknowledging who he is as the King in Yellow is important. And when they were separated once again, they were a new mixture. And I think I used this analogy when some people were asking questions. But it's like, if John is water, and Yellow is oil, and the two were poured into a similar flask, when you pour in a little bit of detergent and you mix it up, they become homeogenous. So now you have a homogenous mix of oil, water, all bound together. And when you pour that back into their separate tubes, you now have pieces of both that are recombined and then re-split.

So now, the John we see psot-56 is different than the John we saw pre-56, in that he has learned elements of what the King in Yellow has spoken to him about.

I hope I have the numbers right.

REN: I was just going to say that, I know that the loremasters listening... he meant 56 and not 55. 'Cause Arthur dies at the end of 56.

HARLAN: Sorry. Yes I meant 56.

REN: Listen. He doesn't have to remember the numbers.

HARLAN: I remember the numbers!

(both laugh)

REN: I really like that metaphor. They've become emulsified and now they're a nice salad dressing.

HARLAN: Exactly. That's right. They're a delicious salad dressing.

REN: That thing that you mentioned about, humans can get so bogged down with choices, and their morality, and being at the grocery store, being like, "Are any of these choices? Can I buy anything that's not hurting somebody?" And I think John, so new to humanity, is absolutely so susceptible to those pitfalls. And a little bit more of Yellow's confidence wouldn't go amiss. Versus Yellow needs to... if John is torturing himself, Yellow is torturing other people. And John needs to not torture himself, and Yellow needs to not torture other people. They have lessons to teach each other.

(both laugh)

HARLAN: And that's it. And John is still relatively new to humanity. Imagine a college... this is gonna sound a bit demeaning for a second, but a college student, fresh out, full of vim and vigor and excitement and knowing the world is wrong, speaking to somebody who has been a capitalist jerk for 50 years. Their heart's in the right place when they come out of college, but... So you have John being like, "I know I'm right, humanity is important," but he's not gonna be arguing in the best way possible, because the other person's gonna be like, "Yeah, well I've seen that, and it failed." And you're going up against... sometimes the response is an overreaction, and you're like, "Okay, cool, I deserve this, I guess." And again, a very human emotion. 

I think that there's two super-important choices in the show, especially in Season 6, and the first is at the end of 57 [Transcriber note: 58] where John chooses to go back with Arthur, and obviously then in Part 60, or I guess the final epilogue, where Arthur chooses to stay with John as well. I needed those two points to come with the characters getting everything they wanted. 

A lot of people were a little bit heartbroken when John went back into the King in Yellow and lost a bit of himself, but he needed to have that feeling, and that choice, so that he could make the choice for himself. He needed to have everything he wanted. He needed Arthur to say, "I'm okay with this," so that he could say, "Okay, cool, well, I don't want it." 

The same way that at the very end, Arthur is given everything he wants through the manager. He says, "Listen, John will be okay, we'll figure this out, you'll be back in your life, you're gonna get to all this." And those are important points for character growth, but also for strong characters in general. I don't want Series 2 to be about them still seeking those same goals. We want to give them those goals, and have them say, "Okay, now I have new goals."

REN: Yes. There's nothing more frustrating than watching a media where the character just continues to go back to the same thing that they've been chasing for six or seven seasons.

HARLAN: Yes. Exactly. It gets frustrating.

REN: It gets very frustrating. I think, for John, especially. Arthur has the experience and the years under his belt. Although, would Arthur have made the same decision in Season 1, Season 2?

HARLAN: Well, yeah. And I think that shows the importance of the growth throughout the series. I never want people to look at Malevolent and think— Series 1 I should say — and think of Raiders of the Lost Ark. And it's like, these characters were irrelevant to what happened. Just for the audience who's not aware, there's a trope out there that says, if you move Indiana Jones from the story Raiders of the Lost Ark, exactly everything happens the same. Because the Nazis end up with the Lost Ark, they open it, and they all die. Nothing changes based on his actions. Which is true. It's obviously not a very good movie, if you take that out. 

But I wanted Arthur and John to matter, and I wanted what they learned to matter. Which all speaks to Arthur letting go — that wouldn't have been something he could do, had the journey not been there. Lilith being released and aiding them would never have happened if they weren't there in Season 4 with Oscar. John manifesting to save the day and putting the lighter in Kayne's pocket if Arthur hadn't sacrificed himself in 56 and told him to embrace his powers in who he is. 

I wanted all of those choices and those moments to matter. I think you could say a lot of things about the finale, but I don't think you could argue that they are irrelevant to the story. I think all of those choices that were made were very important for how the resolution happened.

REN: I completely agree. The Indiana Jones thing and the example of Malevolent are two different ways of considering what's important in a story. Is the plot and on paper the things that happen important? Or are the characters arcs and what the characters go through and their journeys and growth, is that important? It speaks to you as a writer that you care about both, and that you want both to stand on their own, but also that they are inexplicably intertwined in your series.

HARLAN: Yes. Thank you. Yeah, that was really important to me. I definitely didn't want the finale to feel toothless or weightless, even, to be like, "Cool, well, none of what we learned mattered," and I don't think that's the case.

REN: I have a random thought since we're on King in Yellow.

HARLAN: Let's do it!

REN: There was a part where... something that the King in Yellow says that made me wonder if you've thought about what happens at the end of Arthur's natural lifespan, and what John is gonna do after Arthur's lived out his human life.

HARLAN: No. Not yet, I'll say honestly. Because I still want to do a lot more with these boys. And I don't have to pull punches now. I can say I love John and Arthur, I am a big fan of these characters. I think they're really fun. And even if we're learning less about them, I would still be so happy to watch them through many different mysteries and many different moments and many different moments and many different crime-ridden solutions. 

Way back when, I think Season 2 even, before I decided on a Series 2, one of the first things I decided was, okay, when I'm done with Malevolent, what I'm gonna do is, I'm gonna do, sort of the way Ricky Gervais did with  the Office, where they did Christmas specials. They did two series of The Office and a year later, they would do a Christmas special. They did two series of extras, and a year later, they would do a Christmas special. And it's usually longer. 

So I was like, “When Malevolent Series 1 is over — or at this point it was just the series — when the Malevolent series is over I'll be silent for a year, and then I'll drop an hour and a half special of John and Arthur solving another little murder mystery type thing.” That was early days. I was like, I don't really want to see them gone. And then around Season 3, I was like, “Hold on, why would I just do a special? These guys are so fun!”

So right now, no. I am purely and excitedly looking at what the next series, and frankly Series 3. I want to make a audiodrama version of a series of books. I want to make a series of novels starring John and Arthur, and we've just finished Novel 1, Blackstone, and now I'm working on Novel 2, because I always wanted to be a writer, and this is my version of that. Instead of writing it, it's like, okay, some people write it, and some people make them into audiobooks and then you can listen to it. Well, I'm just cutting out the middle man. I'm making my own audiodrama. 

(Ren laughs.) 

So no, I haven't thought about his death yet. 

REN: Okay. 

HARLAN: But now I will!

(Ren laughs)

REN: So the King in Red is gonna be Series 2? Series 3? What book is the King in Red gonna be?

HARLAN: Do you want me just to tell you? Okay, there's a few things. Obviously there's a lot of hooks. But I'll tell you this. My general plan was, Series 1, big big big big big, obviously. Series 2 I wanted to be quieter. Very supernatural, but I want it to be chiller. Series 3 is when I want it to go big again. So personally speaking, I'm saving that type of stuff for Series 3. I don't really want to see the boys doing interplanar travel again in Series 2. I want to bring it back down to reality.

REN: No, that totally totally makes sense. I was gonna ask about the new realms, and how much we're gonna be seeing the Hollow and Carcosa and the Nightmare Realm.

HARLAN: Well, a lot of that — and obviously there's also Tales from the Dark World — a lot of that has options to be played with in there. But really, I'm just fleshing out the universe with more places and more ideas to extend the lifeline of what I'm excited about. People have talked about, "Oh, I wish Series 2 was Noel centric," or something like that, and I’m not ruling that out. It's very possible Series 4 pivots to Noel being the main character, or something like that. There very well could be that. I'm not necessarily saying it's always just gonna be John and Arthur. All I mean to say is, right now, I'm still very much enjoying running these two guys as my main PCs. (laughs)

REN: 100%. Yeah. Who knows what you'll want to write? You probably didn't know in Season 1 that you wanted to go to fantasy England, necessarily.

HARLAN: Nope. Not necessarily.

REN: Okay. I would like to go back to "Let go". You mentioned it a little bit. This season, "you have the means and the ability, you just have to let go" was the central theme. What has "let go" meant in your life, and why was the theme you elevated for the finale?

HARLAN: Great question. And I think that's the importance of "let go", is that it is not necessarily specific to one interpretation, as I proved in the show. I used it as multiple answers in the poll for different things. Because what I was really trying to communicate is, there are things in your life that you need to let go. Sometimes it's about people passing away, and you need to let them go, not from your mind or from your heart, but you need to let go, stop drowning in that sorrow. Sometimes it's about that ex that you love but doesn't love you back, you need to let go. Sometimes it's the memory of something that's holding you back from being a better person, from bettering yourself, you need to let go. Sometimes it's letting go of the version of yourself that you had hoped you would be.

In my life, letting go has meant different little things. There have been times in my life where it's been, let go of that relationship, 100%. There's been times in my life where it's been, let go of that expectation you put upon yourself. Let go of that ideal. And sometimes it's been, let go of that fight or that pride. Sometimes it's been like, what are you doing here? Just let go. It's not a thing.

And I think I was trying to communicate in many different ways to the audience that letting go juxtaposed with the will that says hold on, which is part of "if" which is the thesis of Malevolent Series 1, if I could be so bold as to say, can be okay. I think it's funny because there's a lot of people that speak binary, and they say, "Well, hold on. How can the theme be to hold on but also to let go?" And to me that's the theme of the show in terms of humanity. Because sometimes it's the right to hold on and sometimes it's right to let go. And to think black and white in a world of grays that's so established in Malevolent, where there is no absolute, is important. 

And that's why the last choice of the show was "let go" or "hold on" and that's why both options were released. For people who voted on the last choice who voted to hold on, that they couldn't, and then some people who voted to let go. Which is funny, because I know who those people are, because it tells you who voted.

But yeah, for me, it's meant every number of things, both positive and negative. And it's been something that, when spoken at the right time, can be the most powerful thing you hear. When spoken at the right time. Like, hey, just let go. You're like, "Yep, you're right. You're right."

REN: That's so interesting that you say that, because I was gonna get deeper into the votes from 58 to 60. In the whole season, for sure. 'Cause one of the Let Go votes went horribly, which was, "Let go of Arthur's body and give it to the Dollmaker."

HARLAN: Yeah. That choice...

REN: Which to me, now that you're saying that, definitely fits into that theme of "let go". "Let go" can come in all different shapes and forms.

HARLAN: Yeah, well, it's funny, 'cause that one... that was selfish, in a way. You're like, "No, it's my special thing, and I don't want to let go of it." It's more like a child with a toy being like, "But I might need it." It's like you with a jar that's really pretty. You're like, "It's a really pretty jar." It's like, "Is there anything in it?" "No." "Well, just get rid of it. Be more Marie Kondo."

REN: Give it to the person who's asking for it who's doing you a huge favor.

HARLAN: Yes, and that was funny too. It was very much like, the petulant-ness got punished a little bit. It was like, "Well, I don't want to do it."

REN: The first real, for lack of a better term, black and white "let go" vote is when Lilith and the King in Yellow ask Arthur to let go of Faroe and the vote is, "Let go of Faroe or don't let go of Faroe."

HARLAN: Yes. Very tough one. And I like that, because that was, "Well, hold on, what's the lesson here?" And I love this, because this is a big moment where the audience was like, "Well hold on. Wait. What's the lesson? I thought you told us to let go, but that doesn't seem like something to let go of." 

And I’m like, "Yeah."  

"But hold on, you told us to let go." 

"Yeah."  "Well, I don't want to let go." 

Okay, good. Then you're learning something. You're being like, "Well, maybe I don't want to lie gho." Resistance is sometimes important. Just because someone told you something doesn't mean you have to do it. There's no absolute. 

I'm not daddy being like, this is the right answer. I'm like, here are two options that are difficult. What do you do that makes the most sense?

REN: And what's the context? And why are you letting go?

HARLAN: Yeah. And that, I think, is important too. I think that one was... people knew what I was getting at there. I think that was indicative of it too. They were like, well, no, this isn't something we want to let go of, which was the right answer.

REN: And then Kayne asks twice in a row about "hold on or let go". And then the voters changed their minds. They did "let go" first and then they did "hold on" second. Which led to the horrific drowning scene. Good job.

HARLAN: Yes. Thank you. Which I thought was also very interesting. Because Kayne says... and this was me coaching for the finale. Because I knew my final choice was going to be "let go". And Kayne starts turning that on its head and saying, "Okay, well, can I get you to let go?" And everyone votes "I can't", being very petulant, like, "Well, no, we won't do it." So then Kayne says, "Okay, cool. Well, let me see if I can get you to change your answer.”

So he then puts Arthur in a position to get him to answer the opposite by doing something horrific. And sure enough, they play along. And then Kayne uses this as an argument later to be like, "Well, look. You changed your mind here and here. You still can't do what you need to do when you can." And that was me getting to play with the audience a little bit by showing them that I can get them to vote any way I want based on how I frame the question. 

Which again, speaks to the overall ending, which is, at the very end, Kayne challenges them to finally let go. I was coaching them, hopefully, to be like, can you finally 100% let go when you're not trying to be a contrarian? Unfortunately, I think about twelve people did decide to be a contrarian at the end. But they got their ending.

REN: What did it mean for you, for the final vote, to be as close to 100% as possible?

HARLAN: In my heart of hearts I had hoped it would go 100%, but that was never dependent on it winning. In my mind, and I said this on the Patreon, the last vote is 100% because it's your vote. It's like, you're on the last page of a Choose Your Own Adventure Book, and it says, do you want to end the story on page 156, or do you want to end the story on page 157? Your choice is 100% of the choice at that point, because that's your ending. So it never demanded 100% of the votes to get there. 

But I was hoping, in my faith of humanity, that enough people would understand the lessons of the show and use it as an opportunity to unite and be unanimous in that. And I think there was some really nice strength in those who voted to let go. I saw a lot of really sweet convincing comments. 

And I think, more than anything, because in a way, those who voted "I can't", the few that were, a lot of them left the Patreon immediately. And a lot of them were like, "Okay, fair enough, I voted wrong." And I like that. 'Cause I said, "Your story is over." Not in a mean way, but in a final way, like, "Well, yeah, that's the story you voted for the ending, and that's what you get. Hope you enjoy." And I respect those that left and didn't play and aren't playing again in Series 2, and I hope the rest follow suit because I think that's an important message. It's like, that's how you chose the story to end, and I think that's a good way for your story to end. 

But for those who united, I feel so much pride in the people that put aside their indifferences, that put aside their egos, that put aside their nature in their little goblin minds to be a contrarian, and went, "No, this is bigger than that. We are all one. I'm gonna vote let go." And I really was proud of those who united. Because it was like 99%, 98% of the vote. It was like 650 people out of 670. 650 people all voting for the same thing. It felt really nice. I was really proud.

REN: It was 653 people voted to let go, and 16 people voted to hold on, which is absolutely bonkers numbers.

HARLAN: But you know, they handled it maturely. They were like, "Well, I guess my story's over, I'm gone." It was interesting. I'd be curious why.

REN: It was a really fascinating social experiment, and honestly the whole voting structure, as a stats and political science and sociology thing, everything that you see happening in the votes is what political scientists study about what direct democracy ends up being. It's so fascinating. 

HARLAN: It's pretty wild.

REN: Yeah. Humans are an interesting lot. I love that you say that you can get them to vote how you want by the framing of the vote because that's literally what's happening in Threshold right now. (Harlan laughs.) We're in vote two, and things have already gone off the rails. (laughs) 

HARLAN: Well, and I think more what I really want to clarify is that Kayne can get—

REN: Kayne, yes.

HARLAN: Kayne's premise was to get them to vote... and it was me, but what I mean to say is, most votes aren't like that. It was at the end that I wanted to use Kayne as an argument to be like, Kayne can manufacture a scenario to get two different answers to the same question. And I just thought that was interesting. I can do that too, but not with certainty. I'm always surprised by votes. I'm surprised by the current vote at Threshold. I'm always like, "Huh? Why?" You never know.

REN: And if we had –

HARLAN: Hurr?

REN: (Arrested Development reference) “Her? Egg?”

If we had clean-swept the "let go"s with kayne in 59, I'm sure he would have found a way to manufacture that to his benefit regardless. Kayne's gonna twist it no matter what.

HARLAN: Exactly. He never honors the deal.

REN: To you, though, would it have mattered if we had gotten a clean sweep with "let go"s?

HARLAN: I think I would have been impressed, yeah. I think... I don't know what I would have done. Probably punished you in some way. I don't know. It's always tough to look back on what-ifs, especially when it comes to Kayne. The options are so wide. I really have carte balance because he can create anything he wants. So I don't know. I don't know what would have happened.

REN: I suppose this is a good moment to talk about Kayne carte blanche doing whatever he wants with the song.

HARLAN: Oh, yeah! He's got two songs in this one! He starts off with Tammy Wynette. (sings) “If you could find it in your heart..." 

It's funny because I was struggling with how to open The Final Act. And I was like, “Oh, we're at the Waylay. I'd love for Kayne to do a karaoke song.” And I was pitching songs to Jo for a millisecond. I was like, “Should I do this song?” And she was like, “What song?” And I was like, “Actually, you know what? I'm just gonna do this one.” And it was on my Spotify playlist. I can't even remember why I added it there. It was a liked song. I heard it somewhere. I just remember being like, "That's fun." And I thought, it just feels so whiplashy that he would sing a country song that I just thought it was really funny. So I was like, that one's fine.

Now the Tom Lehrer song, that's one that... I actually recorded that song… I can't actually remember exactly when this came out. Part 60, or I guess chapter 296. But the actual ... I recorded it like a month or two earlier. Because I heard— oh, you know what it was? It was when Tom Lehrer died.

REN: Oh, okay.

HARLAN: So Tom Lehrer died on July 26. He was 97. And when I found out he died I was obviously bummed out. But one of the things that Tom Lehrer did on his death was, he released all the rights to all of his songs. And if you go to his website, it's so metal. The first thing on his website is a disclaimer, and he's like, "I, Tom Lehrer, individually, blah blah blah, give all my rights for music, recording, blah blah blah, to anyone who wants to do them. I release all rights. Everything is free."

So I was like, “Oh, well, I gotta do a Tom Lehrer song, because that's just awesome.” I was like, “I gotta have Kayne do one, 'cause I love Tom Lehrer.” And I was listening to a bunch, and I was thinking, The Hunting Song. And then I was like, "Oh, no, it's gotta be the end of the world, because that thematically makes sense." 

So I started envisioning about how it would all come together, and how fun that would be. And it's funny because I would say for weeks I had it, and I was just listening to it so I would get the tics and mannerisms of the song. 'Cause it's a difficult song to sing. It's very musical. And eventually, one day I was like, "I gotta sing this thing. I gotta get it on paper." 

And then I recorded it, and then it just sat in my file for two months, and I think there were, here and there, that I would joke or talk to people and be like, "There’s something cool coming in the last episode!" And that's usually what I was referring to, 'cause I was just very proud of that song. I just thought it was so out there. And then it stitched seamlessly in. 

It's funny, the first version in that chapter that I included was much more... there was a lot more movement. The singing VR'd around as Kayne was jumping on tables and moving around, and there was more rattling plates and stuff like that. But it undercut the song, in a way, that I think was more important just to showcase that song, 'cause I think it's such a fun song. 

And part of me was like, "Man, if I don't add a Tom Lehrer song, someone's going to." Whether it be a big Blockbuster movie, just gets a big song at that moment, or whatever, and I want to be one of the first to include that, 'cause it's a cool cool song. And then I changed one of the lyrics because they use an offensive name. It's of the time, I don't blame him obviously. But he uses two offensive terms in the latter half of the song. But I caught one of them. I didn't actually know about one of them. So the first chapter came out and I released it with the first offensive term swapped out for another word, and then it was actually Luna Maria from the Discord who messaged me and was like, "Hey, did you know this is..." and I was like, "I had no idea!" 'Cause it's that archaic of terminology. So I swapped both out and reposted it, so the public version doesn't have either of those terms.

Again, I have no problem with characters that would speak those words. Like Kayne says "bitch". He calls Lilith a bitch. And he calls the Irish guy a slur. I have no problem with Kayne as a character doing that, 'cause I think that makes sense. But this is less about Kayne trying to honor Tom than me trying to honor Tom. In that way, I was like, "I want to change those words," because I think if he was mindful and alive, he would probably also update those slightly. And I found rhymes that worked for them really really well.

So that was really fun, and I even saw someone comment on it, I can't remember where, and they were like, "Oh man, I love Harlan's slightly more politically correct version of the song," 'cause they caught that I slightly changed two of the words. I was like, "Okay, cool."

I was really really proud of that.

REN: I would be remiss if I didn't ask, will either of those be released on Spotify?

HARLAN: Oh, it is! Right now!

REN: Oh, it is? Already?

HARLAN: Yeah, We'll All Go Together When We Go is on Spotify. It's been on Spotify for about a week or something. I should let the people know. (sings) I should let the people know...

REN: The other major music that happened this season was the new Faroe song. 

HARLAN: Oh yeah! I love that song.

REN: It's so good. And sometimes as a writer you know that you've written a banger line, like one perfect sentence. And "minor chords don't exist in the heart of a child" is a banger line. Just, that is a perfect sentence.

HARLAN: Thank you. To be fair, I'm pretty sure Jo gave me, not that line, but that sentiment. I think it was Jo. It might have been a community member that said it to Jo and Jo said it to me. I can't remmeber. But someone was like, "Man, Faroe's song is such a minor song for a kid." The way I remember it, it was Jo saying it to me, like, "It seems odd that Arthur would write such a dark brooding song for that." And then I was like, "Well, I gotta write a light song." And then I was like, “Oh my god!” 

Honestly, I would say probably one of my favorite scenes of the entire series is when Arthur writes that song with Lilith. I think that scene is so cool. And yes, that line. Ugh, it is good. I can look at it from afar at a distance now, 'cause I forgot about it. I just love the way it all works.

My other favorite part, honestly, selfishly... I have a lot of favorites in Season 6. It was another moment. When I wrote Faroe's Light, and it gets to the second half and it's uplifting, I could see Arthur falling, and I could see Lilith catch him as that music catches him (sings a few notes) — and then carries him down as he's dying. And then I knew I would linger and I knew she would turn into the baby Faroe, and that he would get to say goodbye to his daughter one last time. And when I thought about it I teared up. And then when I wrote it I was tearing up. And then when I recorded to it, I was crying. And then when I listened back to it, I was crying. Now that's probably because it's my daughter, so I know it's her being like, "It's okay, Daddy." 

But also I just think... there are certain types of media that are heartwrenching, and you'll watch Hotel Rwanda or something and you'll be like, "That's so sad," or whatever. And I feel proud that I do believe Malevolent stands amongst the ranks of media that will make you cry if you are invested in it. Because I do think I would say, conservatively, over 50% of people that heard finale teared up at that part, and that made me very proud.

REN: Yes. It should. It was earned emotions too. It wasn't…

HARLAN: Well that's it. It wasn't cheap. Because he talks multiple times, he thinks of and wants to see Faroe. And then in that moment, Lilith... which, I love Lilith's character arc too, by the way. I was very frustrated at the end of Season 5 because so many people — obviously there is a quiet but loud group of people that don't like the lack of female roles that I play in the show, c'est la vie, it's one of the problems with the way I want to run the show, but that's just the way it goes. But I was really proud of Lilith because I really like her character. And I was like, okay, here is a really cool strong character that's gonna have a big part of season 6, and it was frustrating for me to not be able to explain that to certain people, to be like, "Just wait!" Because I do have... it'd be great if there were even more, but right now, let me tell you, 'cause I do have one who essentially saves the day and solves the problem, but also becomes a foil to Arthur, but also becomes understood, and she's strong and she's cool and she's funny. I don't know, I thought she was a really cool character, and now she's in the wind, which is even cooler.

REN: Yes. Last interview, you said she was the smartest person in the series, and I can't believe how true that ended up being. She is such a mastermind. Were there things about her plan that you couldn't include in the show to give us more insight into how much of a mastermind she truly is?

HARLAN: It's funny, because in her reveal I had toyed with how to do it. I had thought about doing a flashback in that moment where she's like "Checkmate!" and then WOMP, and we go back to Lilith with Arthur saying, "My favorite," and we hear a little bit of magic, and she goes on to say, "You are gonna become irresistible to my father to the point where he makes you more powerful than himself. You are gonna be the thing that keeps this world sane,” and blah blah blah. But realistically, in terms of the energy of the moment it got lost, because I was like, "Well, that is not gonna make sense."  And I even thought about doing an interstitial scene between coming back to Arkham and leaving that beach world, where we see that, but again, the timing didn't work out. I would have loved to see more. 

But no, she was the architect of this entirely. She cottoned on to this plan through the Manager. She was told about it. She recognized that her father was going to basically destroy the world once he had this Blackstone, and so she created, essentially, a failsafe. Someone that could destroy the thing if her dad should find it. Her dad obviously cottoned on himself and sent her to a dark realm which – you call it circumstance or fate – Arthur ended up helping her escape from and once she came back and regained her memories, it was all about playing the long game, trying to do it herself at first, but then ultimately realizing her magic was not powerful enough and that she needed to rely on the stashed dagger of Arthur to actually destroy the plan, which was really fun.

REN: Could Lilith have turned anyone into a lure, and Arthur was just the unluckiest guy on the planet?

HARLAN: Yes. Well, it's not just that he's the unluckiest guy on the planet, it's that—

REN: Like, his parents were cultists—

HARLAN: And Lorick...

REN: Yes, I have that, yes. The "why me" and Lorick says the only answer that would satisfy Arthur is, "Why not me?"

HARLAN: Yes, but Lorick even says in his run-up to that what is revealed to be true. 'Cause Lorick says, "I could tell you that she picked you, blah blah blah, I could tell you this, this, this, I could tell you this, this, this but in the end all that really matters is, why not you? You are the perfect human to want to do this." 

And did someone guide Lilith's hand, that she can't even perceive? Perhaps. We have more world to explore. But all we do know is that Arthur is brutally, unapologetically human, and that that was enough, if not the sole reason, that he got to where he was.

REN: There's been debate the entire series about whether Arthur had some kind of specialness to him, or whether he was a true vanilla everyman, and people had strong opinions about which one of those they wanted it to be. I don't know, I'm on the vanilla everyman side, so I was very happy that there was nothing special about him at the end of the day.

HARLAN: Yeah, I mean, it's kinda both, right? He's a vanilla everyman that Lilith decided would become irresistible to her father so that her father would kill everybody else, while at the same time, once he quote-unquote died after getting John indued in him, the Manager set them a little bit, sent them back with the lighter to complete the other side of it. So he's still an everyman, but he's definitely got the eye of a god in his pocket, watching him and making sure he gets on his road.

REN: Yes. Yes yes yes. Lilith manipulating Kayne and that reveal was so fucking epic. And in my reread and relisten for this, I was just noticing all of these moments where Kayne isn't realizing that someone is playing him because he has made himself predictable. It's just a masterclass of foreshadowing. How much were you thinking about that, especially during this season?

HARLAN: A lot. A lot. I think from the first time we meet Kayne, he jokingly throws Lilith's name out there as the person who's fucking with him, which he dismisses because he knows he's trapped Lilith away. He's like, "Okay, cool, whatever. She was fucking with me or whatever." And then I guess the irony is, a chaotic creature will dependably be chaotic, and that is the undoing of Kayne, is that Lilith counts on him being this violent chaotic force of nature to the point where she doesn't even have to doubt that he's just gonna slaughter every version to toy with his meal until the very last bite, and that's reflected in the way we're introduced to him, and she even says it. She's like, "Kayne's bored, he slaughters a city." That's his whole nature.

REN: Yes. 

HARLAN: Very scientific.

REN: So much so that he doesn't think about it and doesn't even see it as a weakness when John is like, "Why would you bring me all of these Arthurs to kill?" and Kayne says, "Do you need to know why?" And it's like, Kayne, you need to why. It's an impulse in you that is being manipulated.

HARLAN: Well, and I allude to it. And one of the core differences between Lilith and Kayne in The Fallen Seed, because Arthur really confronts Lilith about how she is this powerful force that's never needed to rely on anything but that power. And now that she doesn't have that power, she needs to rely on me, my sympathy, my conversation. You think you can just snap your fingers and things are gonna get better, but you need to start playing in my realm. 

And there's a bit of a moment there that Lilith pauses, and again, she's the smartest character in Malevolent, because she hears what Arthur is saying as, "Okay, fair enough." She tries to take over when she can, and when she can't, when she's rebuked, she realizes it doesn't serve her best, she's like, "Okay." She doesn't hate Arthur. She's just like, "Okay, here's where I can go." She ends up becoming angry and disappointed because she also is one of the most empathetic characters because she feels for Alia, she feels for Faroe, and she has a strong hate for her father that really crystallized when she met the Manager. 

Which is so interesting too, 'cause her timeline— she does her own thing until the Manager comes into her life, and she learns that the Manager and the Manager's Lilith were a team, and she almost resents him at first, to be like, "This is the thing I couldn't get from my father. This relationship. Kayne is his own thing, he's this monster. Why would I ever want to be friends with him?" But she bides her time, she learns the lessons, she listens and at the end of it all, she outsmarts the most chaotic being in the universe. Deservedly so.

REN: Very deservedly so. What other surprises and bombshells were you most proud of pulling off, and which were your favorite fan reactions to witness? 

HARLAN: Man. I mean, top of the list would be Faroe at the end, walking into the office. 

REN: Yes! Holy fucking shit.

HARLAN: And I will say this. I told a lot of people — not a lot of people. I told a handful of my friends, you included, about series 2. That John and Arthur would continue. Because, number one, there were some artists working on the trailer, they needed to know. And some people we were talking to about projects in the future and I was like, "Well, there will be more." Like, Rusty Quill knew that I had more coming and stuff like that. 

But no one knew that Faroe was gonna be in this show in Series 2 except for Jo and I. And it's funny because that's one of the earliest Series 2 notes that I had, for multiple reasons. First off, because of, because I wanted a satisfying end to Arthur's story that didn't feel like a hole in his heart forevermore. You can't cure that, and I didn't want him to come back and John be happy, and for him to be like, "Well, maybe I should have taken that thing." I'm bored of that. 

Secondly, because I just think, how fun is it to get to include my wife in this show and get to have her play a character. 

But also, I think it adds a fun, unique dynamic going forward. Because now we have a new strong question mark and another character to have to interact with that has been so established in this show, yet never heard from. 

And to be clear, Faroe is going to be a side character, the way that Noel or whatever is, but a more constant one that will be there the entire time. And to be clear, Jo is only voicing Faroe. It's not like Jo is gonna be taking on all the female voices in the show or anything like that. This is just the character that she's voicing for me, and she's over the moon about doing it because it's really fun to do it. But that, I would say, is the top of the list, because I just think, no one knew that was coming, and I don't think anyone saw it coming.

REN: No. Well, I didn't.

HARLAN: I was nervous because when I wrote it, Jo and I were like, "Do you think they're gonna know, when Arthur asks about 18-year-old Faroe?" And I was like, "I don't think so at all. I don't think anyone is gonna fathom this being the twist." Especially with how clear I've been about no other voices on the show, people are gonna be like, "Well, there's no way on Earth." That was part of the reason I never faltered from that. I was always like, "No, no, it was just me." That was the top of the list.

Beyond that, I think Arthur breaking the blackstone was a huge, like, "How the? What?" Which I really liked. And Lilith explains it. It's a bit of a "explain away" type thing, but again, when you're dealing with trying to craft a finale, you don't want to spend too much time explaining to the audience, "Well, the reason is because he's the last one, and the last of something is important, and the last can destroy the last..." These are all pantheon that I've developed, and you just gotta trust that it makes sense. And I hear where people are like, "What?" But if it's cooler this way.

REN: Well, you've established it.

HARLAN: Yeah. There's a lot in there between the lore that explains it away. It's just, some people have to look. But that was a cool twist. 

Oh man. I mean, there's so much at the end that I really really liked. I loved that they went to the Waylay. I think that the Waylay was a cool twist, and obviously the song was a really great twist. I don't think anyone saw that coming either, because it comes out of left field. I loved going back to Larson's mansion. I loved Lilith being in Larson. That was one of my favorite things too, because I was also like, "I love Lllith, and I love Larson. And I want to continue this character of Larson, but Larson's, you know, dead."

REN: Run his course.

HARLAN: Exactly. I mean, you can't do too much with him. But I also want Lilith and so I was like, this is a match made in heaven. Now we got Lilson, or Larth, Larlith, or whatever they call him. (Ren laughs) Which I think is a perfect match. You get the Southern drawl, with the sassy, and Lilith is in there. That's a character that you do not have to fear will be coming back in some way, 'cause I just love her. 

REN: When she's walking away, playing with her new accent...

HARLAN: "I'm Southern now!" That's so fun.

REN: So good.

I'm going to throw three quick questions at you.

HARLAN: Sure. Yeah.

REN: They're all related.

How did you do the Dollmaker's voice, how did you do Kayne's jawless voice, and then there's chanting in The Living Wake, and everybody wants me to ask, what was the chanting saying?

HARLAN: Well, I can answer that one first, 'cause that's not me chanting. It's just a stock. It's just going, "Ga ga ba ba." So it's not even me. So that one's not even worth it.

REN: Okay, great.

HARLAN: With the Dollmaker, I put my fingers in my mouth. I really do. And I hold my fang teeth (demonstrating) like this. And then I sort of do a Willem Dafoe, when I'm like, "There's no way you're going to get out of here. There's only one!" And then I add a few filters. But that's basically it. I could kind of do the Dollmaker without anything.

And then Kayne's jaw was literally, I took fingers and stuck them inside of my mouth while I talked. (demonstrating) "You can't do this!" Added some gross sound effects. Honestly, it's always easier. Whenever I do Arthur in a mask, for example, I have a leather bag for dice, and I just put it (demonstrating) over my mouth, and I just made it sound like that 'cause it sounded more effective. The only one I didn't worry about that for was Sir Vale. That was just a filter and it sounded authentic enough to have a helmet, so I didn't worry about obfuscating my voice or anything like that. 

REN: I have a few votes that stood out for me this season that I wanted to get your opinion on.

HARLAN: Let's do it.

REN: When the patrons voted for John... Arthur asks John whether he thinks Faroe is in the Dark World, and the patrons voted 71%, "No, I don't think she's here," to 29%, "Yes, I think she's here." That surprised me because usually patrons are hope-forward. Were you surprised that the patrons didn't choose the kinder option?

HARLAN: I think that was the kinder option. No, because I think, knowing what we know about the Dark World, the version of Faroe that would be there would be really really dark and sad. And it was almost like, your dog's been gone for a few years, and the kid asks, "Is my dog still alive?" You're probably like, "Probably not, no." Because in the long run, the hope is sadder. (overlapping) Or the truth would be sadder. 

REN: That's very true. I mean, I voted for, "No I don't think she's here", but I always assumed that I'm picking the grimdark option slash the CoC option. That sometimes is not why...

HARLAN: Maybe people were trying to be harsh.

REN: No, I think that you're totally right. Because we had been in the Dark World for a minute, and it was very much emphasized that this place is bad. Hair ropes with skulls attached, and naked man full of rats. So fucking cool.

HARLAN: Yes! (Ratcatcher voice) Rats!

REN: Did you have a contingency if we hadn't voted to kill the Butcher?

HARLAN: Yeah. I don't remember what, though.

Oh! Yeah. All of that was sort of dominoes around the same general principle, which was... it was very difficult to get a body from the Dollmaker. I'll just come out and say it. I had the vision of Arthur sacrificing himself, because I had the deus ex of Arthur being born in the plant in the Dreamlands. And I did want that. That was another big twist, actually, the Dreamlands body. I had that since day... whenever I wrote it, I was like, "Well, now we have a save point." Which is really cool. 

You had to do everything perfect. So it wasn't impossible to get Arthur's body, but it was very difficult. And had you just spared the butcher, you would have come back to the Dollmaker without the body and you would have failed that much faster, essentially. But the Butcher would have been alive, so. Trade-off.

REN: Interesting. But without the lighter, he would revert back to...

HARLAN: Potentially, yeah. I don't know, the lighter... Again, I feel like it's like, story beat... I like to think that once they're lit, the light is there. They have their guiding light from here on out.

REN: That's really cool.

HARLAN: But it's not established in canon. That's just the way I viewed it. I want Frederick to be a good boy. 

REN: Yeah. That's really cool. Aww, the Butcher's dead!

(both laugh)

HARLAN: Not the young Butcher!

REN: Oh, that's true! Okay, 'cause I had to ask about what would have happened if we'd shown Arthur's arm to the Dollmaker, and that would have been part of the perfect run to get the body.

HARLAN: Yeah, that's right. Showing him the arm would have been like, "Oh, you need one with three souls! I can do that." Then it would have been killing the Butcher. Then it would have been coming back and letting the old body go to the Dollmaker. So those three would have been like, "Okay, here's your body with your captured souls."

REN: And "fiend versus friend"? I mean, there's no way we were doing “fiend”, but what would have happened if we'd chosen that? 

HARLAN: I don't remember. It was "knock" or just "enter"?

REN: Yes.

HARLAN: I believe it just would have been, you wouldn't have gotten any of that lore with all the portraits. You wouldn't have gotten to explore, basically, because the Dollmaker would have come right up. Probably would have been a little bit more menacing, instead of funny. 'Cause the dollmaker would have been a bit scarier. But I think that lore was important. I liked it.

REN: I loved the Dollmaker. I hope they come back somehow. I don't know, maybe Tales from the Dark World. Because they have such interesting lore and I feel very very bad that we ruined their workshop.

HARLAN: I know. You jerks. (laughs) It was Lilith, I guess.

REN: Okay, so then it wasn't inevitable that Arthur died in that part.

HARLAN: No. I would say no. In the moment, again, it's so tough for me, because I'm like... well, once you guys have chosen not to reveal the arm, the scar, I was like, okay. So Arthur will die because no matter what, that body will be destroyed, blah blah blah. And that was, in my world, two months before you guys got to there. So I hadn't really worried about him living, and at that point, once that decision was made, I was planting seeds to try to figure out how, and honoring the choices that I would have had, like "kill the Butcher" or whatever. But up until that point, I had envisioned, yeah, there would be a way that Arthur would get his body. But I didn't really know how far to take it. Can't plan too far ahead in branching paths, because then you just become too in love with the path that's not gonna happen.

REN: That feels really correct for the Dark World and for a CoC-flavored game of, maybe it's not inevitable that he dies, but the perfect choices you would have to make are so difficult and you really don't know that almost every single path is going to end in death.

HARLAN: Yeah. It has to be tough right?

REN: Yeah, totally.

HARLAN: The Dark World.

REN: It's a dark freaking world, man! Another vote I'd like to ask about is when the voters had Arthur bite his own pinky instead of Lilith's. 

HARLAN: Yes!

REN: What feelings did that bring up for you? And what challenges did that present?

HARLAN: Annoyed!

REN: I know.

HARLAN: I hated that! I think if there was one choice, and frankly, I was extremely disappointed in them. Ugh.

REN: I know. We talked about it.

HARLAN: That one annoys me now. Arthur's been through... I felt emotional about that one. I was like, this guy has been through all of this and you want him to mutilate himself further? And then she takes over him, and I have a real fear of transmography, like, people being turned into other things. I think that goes into the realm of someone taking over your body. It's extremely fucked up. It's just so fucked up. And the way she does it, and the way his legs are all cut up because she's running him ragged. It terrified me. I

 would say, it's not often I'm disappointed by patrons. I was extremely disappointed in that one. I openly... I didn't get it. I thought it was a stupid choice for them to make. I'm going to come right out and say it. And for those who don't know, the choice was... Lilith was possessing Arthur. Do you bite off her pinky, which is the hand she was controlling, or do you bite off Arthur's pinky? And the Patrons for some reason made Arthur bite off his own pinky, which I hated writing. I hated everything about that.

REN: Their reasoning, well, some of it, I was sort of...

HARLAN: Their reasoning is because they fall in love with every character I give them, and I'm gonna punish them for it brutally over and over again.

REN: That's correct. Including right now. Thank god we flipped the vote this week.

HARLAN: Definitely right now.

REN: Thank god we flipped the vote.

HARLAN: Hey, is it flipped? 

REN: Yes, it's flipped.

HARLAN: We'll see! Okay, good. 

REN: No! (laughs) Yes. We flipped it.

HARLAN: No, I mean, it might go back. I don't know.

REN: No, I think people have come to their sense— well, enough people came to their senses that it'll stay.

HARLAN: Yeah, it's tough! I mean, I get it, but also...

REN: Well, and I think some of it was, "Oh, well, we need Lilith on our side," but it's like, man.

HARLAN: No, they just didn't want to disappoint her. Which is exactly what she wanted.

REN: Exactly what she wanted.

HARLAN: She won. And I hated writing it. And I had to even act and write her as if she's surprised, 'cause of how stupid that choice was. Arthur's like, "Fine I'll do it," and she's like, "Wait, really? Okay, yeah, do it." Because it was so  out of character. Another reason I'm glad the fucking poll is flipping. Because I can't imagine Arthur watching a guy get stabbed to death and being like...

REN: "His organs are being harvested and I'm a PI, and my whole thing is helping innocent people, but..."

HARLAN: It's mind-boggling. Whatever.

REN: Anyway. But you did write your way out of it...

HARLAN: Yes. Oh, and again, as always, with all these choices, I can be disappointed and frustrated, but I'm always proud of the path, and sometimes, in D&D too, you roll a natural one, and sometimes what comes out of it is even cooler than if you had rolled a natural 20. I think the problem is, the rolls have to be justified by the character, and I think those are what disappoints me, where I'm like, "Ugh, you're choosing to hurt yourself?" But it worked out really well.

REN: Here's a vote that I thought was a win-win no matter what the voters decided, which was the 274 vote, "Is Arthur going to remain visually the same?" versus "Is the Dollmaker going to give him a whole new body?"

HARLAN: Yeah. That one was pretty toothless.

REN: As a writer it's like, okay, there's narrative depth to if he chooses the body that's kept him here and has all of the history and scars. But then it would be really fun to play with a new body. That's such a win-win. Were you hoping for one or the other?

HARLAN: No, not really. But again, I didn't want to excite myself for one possibility or the other. 'Cause again, that's one that, if they say, new body, I get really excited, and I start planning and thinking, and then the vote flips, and I'm like, "Seriously?" That's when I get disappointed again, 'cause I"m like... So I try to reserve thinking about it at all until the choice is done, or if the choice is clear. I only end up having to bite my tongue or be angry about it.

REN: Yeah. 100%.

HARLAN: 'Cause, yeah, think about it. If you got a blank slate in the dark world with this Dollmaker, what would that look like? It could be anything.

REN: It could be literally anything

HARLAN: Bear head!

REN: Chainsaws for hand.

HARLAN: Arthur with a bear head and chicken hands.

(Both laugh.)

REN: The dollmaker, though, did say that they attached the right pieces for travel to Arthur's current body, and then that body was totally destroyed. Was there cool Inspector Gadget shit that we never got to see that the Dollmaker put in there?

HARLAN: Listen. The head got cut off. I'm not gonna say the whole thing got destroyed. Dollmaker can put things together.

REN: That's true. Interesting.

HARLAN: Just saying. Would the Dollmaker really spend all this time making a body and then just completely destroy it? I would say there's a pretty good chance the Dark World has a version of Arthur's body there. Whether it has a soul in it yet, who knows?

REN: And what kind of head? Bear head, it sounds like.

HARLAN: That's true. Bear head.

(Both laugh.)

REN: Fan artists, get on it!

HARLAN: Get on it! Bear head Arthur.

REN: The vote to not give Arthur's body to the Dollmaker... that's just classic fae rules. The fae are grotesque and their boons might be strange and alien, but you are making such a powerful ally when you do that. And then consciously or unconsciously, that happened at the end of 56. And then right at the beginning of 57, you juxtaposed that, not giving something to an alien thing for a boon, with, in Season 2 Arthur bit off his pinky to make a forest not feel lonely, and the Patrons voted for that, and it's like, juxtaposition of the only reason Arthur got revived was because past Patrons…

HARLAN: Became a piece of himself. 100%. And it's interesting, because technically, John was the one who chose about the Dollmaker's body, right? So you could explain it away storywise that way. But you're totally right and I 100% agree. I wasn't angry about that one, just because I was like, yeah. But it was the wrong choice, obviously. 

And it's interesting. I think if I was to water these all down, or distill these choices down, I feel the biggest problem Patrons have is shortsightedness. And I think not thinking about what the next— including this current vote, all the votes we talked about, they're all so short-sighted, and when you think about the ramifications of what could happen in the future, it becomes so much clearer. And you're right. Why would you piss off a fae creature that you don't have to for no reason. Autonomy means nothing when it's an empty vessel, and earning the favor of something more powerful is so much more valuable.

REN: So much more valuable. Okay. We're almost at the end of my questions. If there is something that I don't cover, and I'm very very deliberately not covering a bunch of nitty-gritty vote things, or the thing about the egg and why everybody was obsessed with the egg... (laughs) Your face right now!

HARLAN: What egg?

REN: When we ask the trader, we could pick from the Trader what thing we wanted...

HARLAN: Oh, there was an egg there!

REN: There was an egg there, and everyone was really really obsessed with the egg.

HARLAN: Yeah. That one also disappointed me too. It was just very meme-able, where they're like, "Egg!" I was like, all right. Sometimes I don't mind that stuff, but sometimes it makes me feel like people aren't listening or something. When it infantilizes something I'm trying to make important. Like the Kayne barefoot thing, where I'm like, if that's the only thing you're focusing on, you're really undercutting my efforts to make this villain. As a writer, you want people to take some of your stuff seriously.

REN: The egg thing felt to me like a Twitch meme, a Twitch chat meme. That's the world we're living in.

HARLAN: Well, that's it. Now I just gotta be smart never to include an egg again.

REN: There are things I'm deliberately not asking about because in a month, there's going to be another Q&A at Invictuscon, and Patrons, of which there are more than ever, get to ask you questions, and so I want to leave a bunch open for Patrons to ask about their favorite vote, their favorite moment. If you're hearing this between now and March 27, 28, 29, then you can jump onto the Discord and join us for Invictuscon.

HARLAN: Please do.

REN: And if you're listening from in the future, more than that, the Q&A will be up on the Youtube.

But okay. This is just something I wanted to tell you that I really appreciated and thought was absolutely brilliant, which was the whimsical tune in 299. Where it's ramping up and ramping up and ramping up, and then Arthur finally touches the stone and then there's silence, and then the whimsical tune cuts in. 

HARLAN: (singing whimsical tune) Doo... doo... boo... boo...

REN: It's such a small moment, but to me it perfectly encapsulates one of your strengths as a creator, which is a bold tone choice that lands perfectly. Not everybody could pull that off. 

HARLAN: I appreciate that. Sometimes it's fun. Sometimes, I do... it is whiplashy, and sometimes it doesn't work and sometimes it does. I remember in The Fallen Seed there was a moment between Lilith and Arthur, maybe near the beginning, that's sort of funny, and I originally had that same music beneath it, and Jo heard it, and she was like, "I think that's too tonally…" I was like, "Okay, cool." I switched it for. a medium track. 

But I agree. I think using that kind of stuff at the right time and the right moment can elevate a scene tremendously, especially when you're trying to dictate how the audience is feeling. 'Cause if I didn't have a track there, and Kayne is going, "What the fuck?" there's an element of fear, where it's like, "Okay, what's going on?" But you hit them with that and they're like, "Okay, this is meant to be funny." I'm reading Kayne's reaction, that was humorous, because that's how Arthur and John are feeling, and it lands so much better.

REN: It lands so much better because it undercuts him so much. Kayne can be raging, and it's toothless. So good. Have you ever seen that clip from the Deep Space Nine episode where they're talking about tonal whiplash in Deep Space Nine, and it goes from Rom and Miles talking about being on the Great River and selling bottles of whatnot in the elevator, and it hard-cuts to Otto being like, "I can still feel the moment where he died..." And I'm just like...

HARLAN: No. I gotta check it out, though. That's awesome. That's funny. Yeah. Sometimes it's tough. Hard cuts can land or can be really terrible. But it's still a skill I'm trying to perfect. Thank you.

REN: Yeah. And I'm glad that you don't go the easy route, and you keep on trying. That's amazing, as an artist. Something else I noticed, I don't know if this was deliberate— Parker and Parker's presence is at the very opening of Season 6 and the very end of Season 6 with his help lending support with his desk and the lighter. And I love the bookends of Parker in this season.

HARLAN: Thank you. I appreciate that. I wanted Parker's presence. Had I been more thoughtful, I think it would have been too obvious, if Parker was flicking a cigarette lighter at the beginning. But I really liked that they were both there.

REN: Arthur as the last booth voice. That was incredible. You really played with the booth voices in this season.

HARLAN: Well, and I had.. When I started out the booth voice, I had ideas around it. I had it justified. I understood who I wanted it to be and what I wanted it to be. And slowly as the series went on I realized, that's stupid. The booth voice is there for the audience. I think probably one of the times we talked, I said, "I have an intention for the booth voice, and I have a character." But I've changed that. 

And honestly, because I think, if you try too many things, and you're doing too many things, it becomes its own thing in general. And I don't want to take away from the show by trying to add a storyline to the meta voice that's framing it, because I feel like at that point, it becomes a little bit too pretentious, frankly. But more than anything, it becomes too complicated trying to track both.  

And more than anything, I've landed on the fact that the booth voice is there to give context to the people playing the game, and yes, there are times when it will manipulate and it will play, but it is an extension of me, an extension of my psyche, and giving it that ability to change and adjust depending on when it's needed is the right way to play it. 

And I think that really came about when I had Kayne doing this, and I had Lilith doing this, and I had, in all of Season 6, the Booth John is way shorter and darker. He talks way shorter. He's like, "What do you do?" He's almost depressed-sounding. And I realized, that's the purpose of it. It's just to frame the chapters. I don't need to worry about more than that, and the voice can be anyone I need it to be, and it should be anyone I need it to be. The way that, and I've used this example before, the way that old movie lighting doesn't make sense sometimes. You'll have hard blue shadows coming in from outside at night, and you're like, "Well, it's not blue outside." And I think in Lord of the Rings, someone said, "Where the hell is this light coming from?" And the lighting guy said, "The same place the music is coming from." It's like, it doesn't make sense. It's a movie. You don't need to worry about it. 

And that's how I feel about Booth John now. Booth John's coming from the same place the fucking music's coming from. He is there to support the story, and no matter who he is, he's going to be the most important person. For that reason, when you hear Arthur saying it in the end, it hits harder, 'cause you're like, "Ah, now I know who I need to hear from."

REN: Truly. It's theme vibes now.

HARLAN: Exactly.

REN: It did feel like this is some kind of character, possibly going somewhere.

HARLAN: Yes. And I intended it to be at one point. But again, I abandoned that. It just didn't hit as hard as it would. And that's one of the beautiful parts of writing the show so fluidly is, I get to change things, eventually. Like, cut out the dice rolls. I still get questions about it.

REN: (laughs) And you always will.

HARLAN: "Why are there dice rolls?" And I'm going to put them back in. More dice rolls.

REN: Finally! Just have Booth John rolling some dice.

HARLAN: It's what everybody wants. More dice rolls!

REN: More dice rolls! No, Arthur as the last booth voice hit me so hard as someone who is deeply invested in playing as Arthur like this is a game I'm playing, I'm playing as Arthur. Hearing his voice for the first and, in this series, last time before the last vote felt so important, and further underlined the importance of voting to let go. 'Cause he doesn't even ask a question, does he?

HARLAN: No. He says, "I need to let go."

REN: He says, "I need to let go."

HARLAN: Again, why the sixteen decided against it, I don't know. But yeah, Arthur goes, "I need to let go." That's the last thing he says.

REN: Yes, Arthur! I'll do anything for you! 

HARLAN: Well, yeah.

REN: Not all the time, no. He is wrong quite often, but...

HARLAN: It is true. But not when he's in the booth.

REN: Not when he's in the booth. 

That rolls me into a question about, we've talked multiple times about your DM style for Patrons in Blackstone. What's your DM style in Threshold? IIs it going to be the same? Are you going to change things up?

HARLAN: Yeah. I think I really learned a lot in the polls, in the choices, in the Booth Johns of it all. 'Cause at this point, I have done… Well, I guess not 300, but definitely over 200 polls where we need to frame it properly and choose properly, and I think what I learned is, 'cause I really lost interest in doing Booth John about halfway through the series, 'cause it was just too much, and that was honestly one of the points that I abandoned the idea of a character being Booth John. When I was like, "Listen, this just needs to serve my purpose. It doesn't need to do anything more.” 

So I think the polls and the choices going forward are gonna be more fun, probably more experimental at times. I really liked the Horig one where it was jumbled and mixed and out of order.

REN: Yes.

HARLAN: It was very difficult to understand what was going on, and I like the way that reflected in the show. I think I'm going to probably rotate out the voices more when it's more appropriate. I could see Arthur also being a voice at times, more if I need him too. 

But overall, I'm going to make the booth voice and poll choices overall easier for me this time around, I think. I want to put more emphasis on the story and less emphasis on trying to carve the path that I want. 

But again, that's always at the beginning. The beginning needs to be the swingiest. The beginning of every story is when people can die here and there. I was really locked in the last two years. From Season 4 onward, we were Blackstone. So Season 5 was driving towards the goal. Season 6 was hell-bent on closing up stories and wrapping towards. 

And now I get to start a new game, sort of. So I'm having a lot more fun with the polls again, 'cause I can be like, "Cool, this person will live or die. Choose," and go from there. 

REN: The field is open. 

HARLAN: So I'm definitely embracing that, and worrying less about those choices.

REN: That's awesome. That's great. And yes, I hope that you can have just a ton of fun with it again, without, like you're saying—

HARLAN: I am, so far.

REN: Good.

HARLAN: So far I'm killing it.

REN: Hell yeah.

HARLAN: Well, not killing it. So far, I'm loving it, is what I mean.

REN: So far, you're loving it, and someone's gonna die.

HARLAN: Yes. Obviously.

REN: (laughs) Okay. Two more questions.

HARLAN: Cool.

REN: We're ending on my favorite guy. Anytime Arthur and the Butcher meet, it's all about cycles of generational trauma. When Arthur is baiting the Butcher, he says, "Do you pretend to be his father, doling out the wisdom, blooding him like he was your own, showing him the ways of the mad mind you have?" And then the Butcher's last words are, "I'm trying to be like the father I never..." and then he trails off. So knowing that, hearing that, and knowing that the Butcher is Arthur's narrative mirror, I can't help but think of Arthur and Faroe in Series 2.

HARLAN: Yeah!

REN: And how does the Butcher with his younger self parallel what we might see with Arthur and Faroe in Series 2? 

HARLAN: Well, spoilers, a little bit, but we've already started to see it. Arthur is now crippled with fear of indecision when it comes to Faroe in Series 2. At least that's the Arthur we’re gonna see. Because here is a man who's spent his whole life beating himself up over a mistake, and now we're gonna see somebody who has that, and at what lengths he'll go to protect it, at what lengths he'll go to try not to rock the boat, even to the detriment of Faroe and his relationship. 

When you think about it, to him Faroe is this dream that has finally come true. It's like you investing all your time and money and buying your favorite car. You've always dreamt of it since a little kid, and now you have the thing that you always wanted. Well, are you gonna drive it? Maybe, but more often than not, knowing the cost, you park it in the garage and you don't touch it. And then you come in every once in a while and you maybe wax it. 

Now this is not meant to be comparing someone to a car. What I mean to say is the importance that Arthur has put on Faroe means that he's also hyper-nervous about losing it. Because as we've seen with Arthur in Series 1, he was a guy with nothing to lose and everything at stake in the same breath. Now we have somebody who's got something very important to lose, and how that's gonna reflect his choices, his danger level, his ability to sacrifice his own body for things? He now has a way bigger reason to be cautious, to be careful. And that changes you. 

He's gone from more or less a single guy with no ties to the world to a father again. And we're gonna see that reflected in his growth and character and I'm really excited to explore that because that's where I am, more so than Arthur in Series 1. I now get to talk about how scary it is to be a parent.

REN: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. He has a lot to live for, which you were setting up in Season 4 before we even got to Faroe, of all people.

HARLAN: Yeah. Well, and that, again, was part of — and I talked about it a few times now, but Season 3 was when I decided to continue on. Season 4 was when I realized I wanted to start creating this menagerie of characters to touch back in with later.

REN: Absolutely. Okay. And our final question, which is the first question that I ever asked you on the record in 2023—

HARLAN: Whoa!

REN: I know, right? Three years ago. That's pretty crazy.

HARLAN: That's crazy.

REN: Yeah. It was for the Invictuscon Q&A and I submitted this question, and I'm interested to hear how the answer has changed. Which is: Over your time doing Malevolent, how has your definition of "Invictus" and "unconquerable" changed? 

HARLAN: Whoa. Good question. I think it's like practicing gratitude. It's something that you need to constantly be reminding yourself of. The definition and the feeling and the poem has not faltered or changed in my mind. It's still been a truism for me. And I still think it's one of the most important parts of the human race of humanity, the will to survive, to push on, to grow. And it's been a theme in all my works, and I think it is most tested in those moments when we falter and when we fail, and I think what's beautiful is knowing that it's something that no matter where we are, no matter where we are in life, no matter what happens, it's always something that we can reach for. It is not dependent on external forces, necessarily. It's not dependent on having the right shoes on. It's not dependent on having the right relationship. The spirit of Invictus is something that every human on Earth can reach for and strive for, and it's a great equalizer in that way, and I think I love it for that. And to me, having it be there as perennial as the grass, having it be there as untouchable, is what makes it so powerful. It is a stone pillar that cannot be toppled because it is one that is universally true. 

REN: It's the stars that are always in the sky.

HARLAN: Yes. Yes, exactly. It is constant.

REN: Those are really beautiful words to end on.

HARLAN: There we go. Well, thank you so much, Ren. This is amazing.

REN: This was awesome. And I'm really excited to talk to you again in a month. That'll be really exciting. Thank you so much for creating this amazing series and we're all so grateful to you that you share your time and your thoughts and your cool world.

HARLAN: No, thank you, and thank you to the audience because, listen, I've always dreamed, more than anything, of having people care what I create, and I am so fortunate and lucky that I am in the position now that I can create something and I have people there that want to listen to it, and that is something I am eternally grateful for, so thank you for asking me these wonderful questions, and thank the audience for being there.

REN: Thank you, audience. Creators couldn't do what they do without people to be their fans and love their work.

HARLAN: That's true.

REN: Okay. Well, I'll see you round the table.

HARLAN: Cheers!